The Driven Podcast
The Driven is a podcast hosted by Colt Charlebois. Sitting down with business owners, founders, and high-capacity leaders, he uncovers the real stories behind their success — the lows, the turning points, and the faith woven through it all. Every episode follows the same arc: where it all started, what nearly broke them, the moment things shifted, and where they are now. Raw testimony from leaders who built something meaningful while carrying real weight — in business, in life, and in faith.
The Driven Podcast
Ep 005 | Opposition Isn't Proof You're Off Path | feat. Brandon Hayes
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You stepped out in faith. Then everything came apart. Does that mean you're off path?
In this conversation, Colt sits down with Brandon Hayes to unpack the moment every faith-driven entrepreneur eventually meets: opposition that makes you feel like you've made the wrong call. Brandon shares how a decade of loyal service ended in a lawsuit, a vanished attorney, a default judgment, and a friend praying an unprecedented prayer that changed a judge's mind the same night.
You'll hear why soft skills are the next commodity while everyone else chases AI, how to build a business that serves before it sells, how to actually hear God in ordinary moments, and how to walk free from offense when someone royally misuses you. Brandon also shares the one discernment question he asks himself every time opposition shows up.
If you've been questioning whether obedience actually pays, this one is for you.
ABOUT BRANDON HAYES
Brandon Hayes is the founder of Kalos Consulting, a fractional talent and strategic hiring practice serving founders, CEOs, and leadership teams when a hire really matters. Over nearly two decades, he has helped organizations attract, assess, and retain high-performing talent through the Kalos Essentials behavioral framework, which evaluates candidates for skill, behavior, compensation alignment, and culture fit.
Brandon is the original founding recruiter for Forbes.jobs and a chosen partner of the Carolina Panthers Small Business Program. He hosts the Build.Grow.Learn Conference, co-leads the OneLife Mastermind, and speaks nationally on hiring systems, leadership alignment, and decision quality in high-stakes moments. A third-generation entrepreneur, husband, and father of three, Brandon lives by Galatians 6:9, do not grow weary in doing good.
Five o'clock that night, I get a phone call. Hi, this is the clerk at the circuit court of such and such. Are you in front of your computer right now? I pull up this email. Hello, Brandon. This is highly unorthodox. In 25 years on the bench, I've never done this, so I wanted to put it in writing. I've had a change of heart and decided to give you a 45-day continuance to seek new representation, and I'm rescinding my gavel swing. So there's only one thing I knew. Mike and his faith, where I didn't have any, prayed this through.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Driven Podcast, where we look to explore the fine line between impact-driven and ego-driven. And today's guest is an incredible man, runs an incredible consulting firm as well, helping purpose-driven organizations, but he didn't get here overnight. That's been a bit of a journey for him. So we're going to explore today a little bit of some of the destructive motives that can exist within us as faith-based entrepreneurs. These things, these subtle nuances that are in the fabric of our being that when we declare yes and amen, we declare forgiveness, we declare purity over our lives and minds. We think we're operating by kingdom standards, by kingdom mindsets, only to find out later on that there's been something in us that needs deeper revelation, needs the Lord's removal. So without further ado, I want to welcome Mr. Brandon Hayes to the podcast. Welcome, my friend.
SPEAKER_01So good to be with you, Colt. I'm excited to go on this journey together and excited to see where we end up.
SPEAKER_00Tell me, first of all, what's one of the problems you see, the challenges that you see for faith-based entrepreneurs in the marketplace today?
SPEAKER_01Just opening with a quick, easy one, huh? Major impact on faith-based kingdom entrepreneurs. Uh so I just hit uh 20 years uh in a professional service industry. I've had two decades of executive search and recruitment, and I've spent the last several years doing leadership development, speaking at conferences, and putting together an entrepreneurial ecosystem, an incubator, to just help find people that could rub elbows together, share resources together, because it is a lonely road to walk as a founder or an entrepreneur by yourself. And when somebody else is writing your paycheck for you, it just feels a little bit different when you are the one that's getting up and trying to make it happen and uh and no one's writing you a check unless you do something. So uh I would say I think the biggest thing facing right now, as I've been coaching with several different individuals, I would answer with two parts. The first is whether you want to call what happened in 2020 that kind of started this trajectory, it feels like people are just trying to live above the fray, just trying to figure out how to find balance, tend to themselves while still do business in a very tumultuous economic giant question mark over a lot of the industries and business instability. So there's the internal world and then the external circumstances, and that's starting to create uh kind of a perfect storm if you're not watchful and seeing where this could lead.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, some of what I think you're saying here is that first of all, through that whole debacle, our personal lives and our professional lives for many of us just got completely enmeshed and entangled. And it's like work from home, great. Then you realize not always great. And so the separation and having even just a drive home to let some of that go before you enter, you know, father mode, husband mode, uh that's some of what you're saying. And then we're we're in this really, yeah, strange economic times. Inflation is going wild, and so much is changing through AI so fast that everybody's nervous.
SPEAKER_01Very nervous. There's a lot of just what feels like uncertainty and instability. And I just always feel like if you feel that if the external situation is instability and uncertainty, you better make sure you have stability and certainty internally, or else that's where that perfect storm starts to meet and cause a whirlwind in folks' lives. You can walk through a storm if you're peaceful on the inside. But if you don't deal with some of that, and that comes up in various ways, uh trigger points that we have in business and in personal family life. But if you don't address that, I think that's where we try to compartmentalize and stuff. And you see people that get success, but then they also get burnout, and they also get marriages on the rocks and those kinds of things. So I guess holistic success is what I'm after.
SPEAKER_00So good. I mean, certainly close to the belt for me, gone through a burnout, you know, part of it just not knowing how to pause, how to rest, what it meant to take Sabbath, which is certainly a big part of that story. I do want to ask you before we get into the inner world a little bit, based on what you're seeing, this looming uncertainty. I'm gonna quote the great one here, not Jesus Christ, he's the real great one, but the self-imposed great one, Wayne Gretzky, of course, Canadian icon, the great one who says, skate to where the puck is gonna be. And so, Brandon, with all this uncertainty looming, your best prophetic insight. Where is the puck gonna be? How do we help business owners stabilize?
SPEAKER_01Where's the opportunity gonna lie? There's a couple things that come to mind, and this is just me analyzing some of I mean, we have Fortune 500 clients, and I have bootstrapped small businesses that are one or two-man shops. Uh, and I've been talking very similarly. I have some that feel like their tech space or their software could be obsolete in six to eight months. And what do you do? How do you reinvent yourself on the fly like that? And so really there's two things that come to mind to me. The first one is everybody I've been talking to, I say one thing, now would be the time to start investing into soft skills, problem solving, conflict management and resolution. I don't care what tech stack you have, what AI or vibe coding you're gonna go after, you still need relationship-driven is still a commodity. And that's still gonna be a vital piece, whether it's implementing or analyzing or inputting data into AI and technology. But what would separate someone right now is their ability to go back to how do I shake hands? How do I make a proposal and presentation? What does it look like to be able to walk into a boardroom and engage and disarm skepticism? How do I deal with team and leadership troubles? As I just mentioned, everybody is stressed, they're bottling all this up. So when I have team members blow up and explode, what is my response and resolute? And my other crazy winged idea, and the data's starting to prove this now, is the trades are coming back, Colt. I'm telling you, plumbing, electrician, all these trades, those are gonna be the people making 150, 200k a year. So those business ideas to bring efficiency and simplicity to those areas, whether it be technology or other, uh, I think is gonna be vital as well. Uh I don't want to be Kodak or Blockbuster. I want to be around for a while. So I better be willing to innovate and not just stick my head in the sand.
SPEAKER_00I imagine the perfect convergence of those two things is that if you have soft skills in the trades, oh wow, what a good idea.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're in good shape. You're trending in the right direction.
SPEAKER_00I had a tenant uh recently purchased in his defense. He said the cat litter that he purchased was flexible, which in hindsight in my mind is well, if a cat goes for number one and it's not a puddle, how does that work when it hits water? Anyways, the the but I had to call someone, a rooter, $700. He was there, sent the machine down the pipe, was out of there. It's like he's doing okay. But I thought for a second you were gonna say start investing in AI, because that's what everybody else says. But you said soft skills and really understanding human behavior. Why? Why for you is that?
SPEAKER_01Because I feel like, yeah, I guess I could invest into tech or AI for sure. But the reality is I'm always looking for that. You you there's still a wave, but that wave's already going, right? There's a break to that. I'm looking to catch the next wave behind it. And I think the next wave behind it is this it's not gonna solve all the problems. It actually is going to reveal some other gaps. And so I would rather skill up and tool up and level up in the areas that it's not going to cover. And AI is never going to be that component. It's never going to get the emotional and the relational connection and aspect. We're still selling to humans. If you're in a professional service or B2B or B2C, the person on the other end, the consumer or the other business, they're still looking for that piece of buyer confidence. And so right now, everybody that's writing all of their marketing and their proposals with AI, it all reads the same. So pretty soon it's not going to be very different variations of three proposals. So what's the X factor? Me. I'm the X factor bringing that proposal and sitting down and being able to have that intelligent conversation, be able to help them solve problems and uncover things they didn't know were there. That's why I would answer that way.
SPEAKER_00I love that. And in my own need to differentiate, I've given myself permission. I have a famous ability to make typos in an email, regardless of how many times I've read it. So but now it's like that's my differentiator because hey guys, guess what? I don't use AI. This is real, this is real human. They know it, they see it, and this is the real me. And I think that we're gonna enter a time where people appreciate that. That's my hope. But to your point, soft skills, I I look at we're close in age, if not very close in age. But I like to think of myself as an elder millennial. I've heard that term. I thought, hey, that's fitting, elder millennial. And last era to have an analog childhood, digital adulthood, kind of a neat bridge of gaps. But there is a generation that was raised on a device that is entering the workforce. And I don't mean that as a knock, I mean that it has changed social interactions. I can communicate better through this tool, I feel more comfortable doing that than I can when you're in front of me. I actually get a little anxious. They're poor generations, some of them coin them the anxious generation. We're a thing we need to help turn around, right? So, but to your point, investing in relationship skills, or investing in soft skills, investing in understanding how to sit in discomfort and conflict, right? What does that look like? I fully agree. That individual that knows how to hold space where other people don't will always raise up in leadership, they'll always be promoted, they'll always have opportunities as a consultant or coach.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, who who would you want to take under your wing as a mentor or as someone you would invest your time, effort, and energy into? If you had two people that looked similar on paper, and one person can't look you in the eye, they're very skittish, they're, you know, and the other person, I met with a 19-year-old the other day, and all I wanted to do when I was done was I would love to open up doors for you. I'd love to put you in touch with this person because the way he interacted with me, the intentionality of his questions, the depth of him being an individual, I thought, oh, I would love to introduce you to this person and this person. And it just, I believe it's an access point, absolutely. And the most common thing I hear from employers when they're hiring junior or entry-level talent is you know, we're just afraid they don't really have world life real experience. We're afraid that how are they going to do in this? That it's great that they're book smart, but can they handle the pressure? And and so to be able to demonstrate that with those kind of skills, vital.
SPEAKER_00Last little mention of this, too, but going back to the trades, I had an epiphany the other day because I had paid so much for a tradesperson to come to my house. I have tradespeople that I hire to do certain work on rental properties and such. And sometimes there's just you always gotta deal with a little personality, we'll say they bring a little personality to the equation, and then there's others where I was like, wow, that was a great experience. You get the bill and you're like, oh, I guess I paid for that experience. And you realize that communication is such an indicator of the price you're gonna pay, meaning that there are some really talented tradespeople that I work with, and it takes a little bit of patience on my end to just wade through some of their opinions or comments or thoughts or actions, and yet I don't pay nearly as much. And then those who are communicating at a very high level that understand that really can meet my needs and understand me, I feel so well supported, and then I get the bill, and I'm like, okay, there's a I see the correlation here. So X factor all day long. Now, I'm gonna guess that you and I had different upbringings, and I'll tell you why. Because what I know about your story is that you worked faithfully under a mentor, under an employer for 10 years helping a man build his business and potentially even rebuild it. And in my story, my father, my stepfather, both rebellious characters. I mean, if there was a law, they were like, How do I break this? So this was impressed upon me as kids, like, just do it your own way, is kind of the way. And I was reflecting how my work experience I've never really followed well. And that was in a wake-up call when I was trying to become a leader and thinking, why does nobody follow me? It's like, well, in order to be a good leader, you gotta be a good what, right? You learn this lesson, good follower. And my experience, unfortunately, I hadn't gotten that t-shirt yet before I became a leader. And that's why I think your experience was different because you were a good follower and yet it didn't go so well for you in some respects. So why don't you take us into your story a little bit and tell us what those 10 years looked like and where you ended up?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so this is probably a a little bit of a professional and spiritual journey at the same time, which is kind of fun. So I um stumbled upon the recruitment world and industry completely by accident, was in the trades doing some construction work, believe it or not, but did have good soft skills on top of that. So I was doing a room edition on my then uh, and that person whose home it was ended up becoming my boss because of the way that I was performing at work, working hard. I mean, building an addition is not easy, but my question asking and the way that I presented myself, I got offered to come in for an interview without asking for one. And so I sit down and I ended up getting introduced to the recruitment world, which is basically the reason I fell in love with this is because you get a chance to help people be the best version of themselves. And it's like the matchmaking e-harmony for professional services, right? I'm taking companies and candidates or prospects and trying to help find good matches. But beyond just matching bullet points and resumes and job descriptions, I'm looking for behavioral match, I'm looking for culture match. I want to hire a thoroughbred who's gonna be with me long term. That's how I would want to hire. And so I spent 10 years learning this industry.
SPEAKER_00Can you give us a little snapshot of as a small business owner engaging with you to help someone hire? How are you trying to meet my needs, serve me? And then in turn, how are you trying to prep candidates and help this thing come together? Because it doesn't always come together so easily without a recruiter.
SPEAKER_01To be honest, probably the most often thing said in our staff meetings is uh at the end is would your deal have blown up by now if you weren't involved? And the recruiter is like, oh, absolutely, we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for me. And it's not arrogance, it's the fact of there's a reason there's brokers in particular scenarios, right? So on the company side, a lot of times they're rushed, panic hiring, or not addressing the core needs of what that vacancy actually is. The greatest visual response I get when I sit with a prospective employer who wants to hire is okay, after meeting with you for 30 minutes, my professional recommendation is you're not ready to hire. They're like, what do you mean? We have HR approval, or what do you mean? I already have the budget. I said it's not about that. You're gonna invest six months of training and effort and energy into this. And I'm telling you, because of whatever it is, culture, the roadmap, the way that you're planning on onboarding this person, they're not gonna last. Or this is a revolving door, this is your third hire for this same position. What have we learned? Okay, just you're gonna find the magical person and all of a sudden now they'll stick. Now you have to do some internal self-inventory, right? And so most of my kickoff conversations a lot have to do with what is the leadership style, what's the vision, what's the retention plan, what's the onboarding process look like? Someone's experience in the first 30 to 90 days determines whether they're going to be there one year or 10 years. I mean, that's really how it goes. And so on the candidate side, and this is the hard and the awkward part, everybody interviews with their best poker face. It's the best game face. You're getting the best version of themselves. And I would advise somebody bring the best version of yourself when you show up to an interview. But at the same time, you need to be real and honest. Uh, I actually had somebody approach me for an opportunity, and the first thing I said is listen, I'm going to be very honest and transparent with you. I have those strengths to support you in this role, but these are two areas I'm unfamiliar with, and I'm a quick study, but I would never want to paint myself as somebody who could do something and then bait and switch you. The amount of respect that went up because I was just transparent with them and took what could have been a perceived weakness. And now what are you they thinking of? Brandon doesn't have this particular skill but this particular software? Or are they like, wow, in the midst of a chance where Brandon could have bluffed and pulled the wool over our eyes, he just came at us with transparency and honesty. So which one do you think rose my stock value more, right? And so that's the way I would approach a candidate. Like, they're eventually going to see the real you. So you might as well at some point give them a little look behind the curtain because it's going to be more disappointing if you've been faking it the whole interview process and you show up and it's two months in, they realize they made a mistake on you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've been personally involved with some of the placements that you had made, and I was awestruck over how great of candidates you were able to source versus what I've seen in the past where recruiters were just filtering resumes to some degree. So the amount of effort you put into this matchmaking service, yeah, it's remarkable. It stands apart. Well, take us back into the story. Tell us your journey to start into this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, this is probably where that heart for people came out. So I'm in a predominantly commission-only sales-driven market, and I was being trained by some 1990s-looking guy with a bow tie that was basically like the cutthroat sales guy. And this is how I'm being trained on my training videos. That's how it's being demonstrated to me in the office. So naturally, like you said, I'm following this model, and I actually saw some success with that. Uh, and then uh I won't rabbit trail us, but I had a pretty dramatic conversion uh and I met Jesus two weeks before my 21st birthday with a tangible encounter where I knew that my life would never be the same. I show up to work over the next couple weeks and months, and I just I stopped seeing dollar signs when I looked at people, and I started seeing the people behind the deal. And that meant two very real things. One is I wasn't going to play the game to just try to get the deal done. And I actually started caring about is this really the best spot for this person? So the look on my old boss's face when he was listening into a conversation, and at one point I advised this candidate, the client wanted them, they made an offer. We're in the final conversations, and they asked my opinion. And I said, if you want me to be honest with you, I don't think you should take this job. And he like went like as white as this wall behind me because he's looking at this is a $30,000 deal that I'm gambling with. And the guy's like, why not? I said, because you told me when we first met you wanted this, this, and this. And these were your non-negotiables. And because they offered you a higher price tag for this salary, you're about to compromise on two of those. So if you want my honest advice, the new car smell is gonna wear off eventually, and I don't think this is the right long-term home. And you said you didn't want to hop around. And so I would say you decline it and we go find you something better. I mean, I got reamed out for doing this, man, because I could have made the quick sale. But that's what it looked like for me to say, I'm gonna start caring about people, and actually the fruit of that is gonna be increase and favor and better referrals. But that means I can't chase money. If I chase money, I'm gonna compromise.
SPEAKER_00Did you believe that at the time uh where when you first made that proposal or were you just saying, I gotta trust my instinct on this? Could you see the road ahead?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it developed over time. But what I shared, I even said this to somebody this week. If you don't make up your mind of who you want to be and what you're where you're gonna put your stake in the ground on certain convictions when you have nothing, it's certainly gonna be a lot harder when you're in that opportunity. If I didn't make my mind up that I'm not gonna chase money and commission, then I would have just flubbed it and I would have just made the deal and cashed my check. I did have to make a decision of who I wanted to be and what kind of reputation I wanted to have in a business before that. It's the same way that everybody says, oh, if I win the lottery, I'll be super gentle. I'm like, you wouldn't even give anybody five bucks and buy their coffee right now. Don't tell me all of a sudden when you're in success, it's much easier to hold the standard. You gotta do it when you have nothing. That's my take.
SPEAKER_00That's so good. And I feel like we have a similar story in this because in my faith conversion, which happened a little bit later, 28 years old, it was in reading the Bible that that the seeing Jesus came to serve and not be served was such a revolutionary concept for me. Because again, like you commission-based business, whatever I find, I keep it survival mode, right? And I I everybody is a potential referral or a commission check. It's really hard to see beyond that. And the accumulation of that is, well, I'm on the edge of bankruptcy. I owe a hundred thousand dollars, and everybody is a price tag. I don't know who to go for lunch with, who can lead me where, I don't know how to spend my time. When I I turn the corner and said, Jesus came to serve, I'm just gonna go and I don't know what's gonna happen, but I'm just gonna give this person the advice they have. I'm gonna help this person from church out. I'm gonna I just it started shifting who I was, right? I no longer had the commission breath, right? It's like the idea everybody can smell it but you, right? So you stop showing up in the world like that, things start to evolve. I it sounds similar, but I had a yeah, it was a step of faith for me to start serving first because it was out of my paradigm.
SPEAKER_01It's it's very interesting when you recognize that this whole idea and concept around the internal life that we had mentioned, right? And Jesus is very nicely puts it and says, Hey, you're trying to work on the external. First clean the inside of the cup, and then the outside of the cup will get clean. And I think the reality is we're trying to put up this kind of front, this poser mentality, this facade to whoever, the potential prospect, the person I'm trying to hire, my team. And then when you realize if I would just get straight with myself and figure out where I really stand and what I really believe, that's going to begin to permeate. And that's what's more attractive. So for me, it was an abundance mindset and mentality. There's plenty of pie to go around. I just need a slice. I don't need the whole pie. And so when I show up to an event, I'm not thinking, what can I get? What can I get? I need all the pie. I'm thinking, man, there's more than enough to go around. Who can I give something away to? Who can I offer to connect with my network? And that I feel like that abundance is what starts to attract more abundant-minded people around you.
SPEAKER_00That's so good. Because you're also in that state, you're a little more relaxed. You're not walking in with this like the commission breath, it just it projects this neediness that people feel, right? They see you're overly over the eager to close a deal on them. Tell me, when this employer that you're working for, you're new in the job, you're taking risks as a new believer. What is the state of the business? Were they thriving? Were they?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so this is right before the 08 kind of economic downturn and crisis and housing market. And so what ended up happening is over the course of the next six months, my production and numbers nearly doubled. And there was this moment in time where we used to have uh all these whiteboards up and we'd have people's numbers and monthly sales, and we're showing up to our meeting, staff meeting with everybody, the sales meeting, and they're taking the woman who was the always the leader, she'd been there 10 years before me, they were taking her board down and moving it over to make room for my second sales board. And I mean, this is when things really kind of amped up, okay? So I was kind of like, now I've got a target on my back, and they're all like, what are you doing? You're in here making night calls and you're doing stuff on the weekends. I said, no, all I'm really doing is walking with Jesus and caring about people. And they're like, no way, that can't be it. So my production of numbers double over the course of six months. And so now my boss is like, I don't know what the heck you're doing, and I don't even know if I believe in what you're saying, but just keep it up, keep doing whatever's going well, right? Uh, and then everything tanked in 08. And everybody, I mean, within three months, it was me, the owner, and one other person. And there was about 15 people at this company before that. So it came to a point of deciding do we want to build this back up or should I just throw in the towel? But I loved what I was doing. And so I'm like, I'm gonna give it a run and see if we could build this thing back. And so from 2008 to 2014, we built back and surpassed his client base and the overall kind of annual revenue top line that we were doing pre-2008.
SPEAKER_00Is it fair to say you're probably doing it with less people as well?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we had less people, a little bit more efficiency, and so I finally in 2014 I said, listen, I want to change the way we train people, I want to change how we get this idea into them. Essentially, the core values I was just sharing with you. And after all this, we get it all the way built back up. I get told, listen, we've done the same thing for 30 years, we're not changing a thing, we're training them and onboarding them the same way. And I and so it's our way or the highway. And so I basically said, All right, to the highway I go. And so I resigned that day.
SPEAKER_00Wait a second, wait a second. The company is tanking because of an external factor, yet your methodology is working, and presumably you're still up at the top or the top sales recruiter, and yet there's a desire to not change. I think first of all, if I want to pause and just say there are people listening to this, they're probably neuter to faith or considering faith, or just liking the approach in general, and they're deploying it saying, Hey, I'm gonna care for people first, based on your story, my story, other people's stories, this desire to want to just be human and they don't know if it's gonna work. And so I love hearing your story because there was a direct cause and effect to caring for people well. And so if you're listening and you're in that space, I want you to keep going, keep pressing in, even if the short-term expense is great, because the long-term payoff at night, when you lay down and you're like, I serve the heck out of this day, right? I gave it my all and I cared for people well. If that's your metric, the rest comes in floods. And sometimes it changes in season, but externally, not internally, right? So state that, but then go back to your story and say, So he decides to not embrace this reality. Maybe there was some inner resistance to Jesus himself, I don't know. But ultimately he says it's my way or the highway, and you found an off-ramp.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was well then I'm I'll hit the highway today, and I resigned on the spot. I said, I can't train people to go out and pull the wool over people's eyes just because we want to make money. And we've proven we can make money without doing that. So, what do we need to do that type of selling? I I enjoy not having to get home and have to take a shower and be able to get to wash off the yuck from business. And I like looking at myself in the mirror thing like I did right by people and treat others the way I'd want to be treated. So, anyways, we have impassable differences. I take a few days to kind of gather myself. And I'm like, okay, I'm a third-generation entrepreneur, never thought of starting my own company. My wife, I'd been married three months. Uh, I'm laying awake at night after being married, and she's like, What is the matter? And I'm like, I think I want to quit my job and start my own company. She's like, You've never mentioned this ever. We've never talked about this. Do you have a business plan? I'm like, yeah, not really. No, I haven't really sketched this out too far. I just, I know that I can't keep working under these particular conditions. Luckily, she's a woman of faith. She'd already said for better or worse, or richer or poorer. I'm like, it could be poorer. I'm not sure, but are you with me if we do this? So she took the plunge with me. She backed me. I wouldn't have done it if she wasn't on board. But I'm literally sitting there Googling what is a good name for a company. And uh, and so I end up landing on this Greek word that I think embodied what I wanted to build. So kalos is a Greek word that means excellence or nobility. But the second definition is uh an outward sign of an inward or noble good. So it means good or excellence, but that part of the inward that is eventually going to look like excellence outward, that's what I went for. And so I picked this name of the company and I launched uh a crummy-looking website. And two weeks later, I get a letter in the mail that my old boss was suing me for $250,000 for breach of non-compete contract. And so this is three months into my business. I have one client. We've made $10,000 so far. Okay, so we have no money. I'm freshly married, and I realize I don't even know what to do here. This is severe opposition. So how did you react that day you got the letter? To be honest, I first off I laughed because genuinely I know I knew that I signed that non-compete. And the day I left, I got told explicitly, don't forget, 10 years ago you signed that document, and we'll see you in court if you try to sell in our particular industry. So when I went home, I said, Listen, if I could only recruit and sell in this particular segment, then I'm really not that good at all. So it's kind of like, can I prove to myself? So I chose, again, internally, to shelf a decade's worth of clients, contacts, and network and not touch it for two years. And so I had actually been building something new. So to get this letter, the first thing is I laughed. I thought, what? There's there, there's nothing on me. I didn't do anything, right? I actually did honor my non-compete. So I kind of fluffed it off at first, to be honest. What happened next is crazy. So I hire an attorney and I'm trying to build my business. And so, to not get too much into the weeds, there were multiple factors to this particular lawsuit. And so, anyways, I don't hear anything for a couple months. The lawyer says, Oh, this will take some time. They I'll let you know when we set a date for court. And then I'm texting and calling my attorney. I don't hear from him, and finally I find my case online, and it states that I'm due for final judgment hearing the next day. I hadn't heard anything in in months. So I show up to this court case, and the judge calls me forward and says, We've met five times. You've never showed, you're we have no attorney, you've had no representation. This is merely a formality. Like this case.
SPEAKER_00You've hired an attorney though, but he didn't get the memo.
SPEAKER_01What I mean, without getting into too much detail, but he had a mental breakdown and never told any of his clients and was dis disappeared, never responded to anybody. So I brought, like, I printed out texts and phone calls, and I said, listen, I've been trying to reach my attorney. I didn't know. The judge ended up saying, listen, sorry, there's nothing we can do, swings the gavel, awards my old boss $250,000 for working with two companies that were supposedly his clients. I'm like, where did he get these companies from? On my LinkedIn profile, I had two testimonials from these two companies. So there was an assumption that I had worked with them under my new company, but I'd actually worked with them under his company. That's all it took. So now, if you want to ask, what did I think? I'm sitting there after this with my friend and spiritual mentor, his name's Mike, and I go, Mike, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna go home and tell my wife we're bankrupt? We have nothing. And he's praying for the meal, and he goes, Why don't we just pray that the Lord would judge change the judge's heart? Like like Pharaoh, you know, he worked on his heart. I go, what? What are you talking about, Mike? He just said case closed, it's over, Mike. I said, if you have faith for that, go for it, man. But I I'm trying to figure out how to make sure I stay married at this point, because this could sabotage my whole life. Five o'clock that night, I get a phone call. Hi, this is the clerk at the circuit court of such and such. Are you in front of your computer right now? I pull up this email. Hello, Brandon. This is highly unorthodox. In 25 years on the bench, I've never done this, so I wanted to put it in writing. I've had a change of heart and decided to give you a 45-day continuance to seek new representation, and I'm rescinding my gavel swing. So there's only one thing I knew. Mike and his faith, where I didn't have any, prayed this through. That's incredible. So what I would say to folks in a story like that is it felt like I took the risk, I was obedient and stepped out in faith, and I was met with opposition. And the natural reaction is something must be wrong. I did, I'm not in, I'm not on the right path. No, actually, you should expect opposition, right? To be honest, that should add fuel to your fire when you're butting up against something like that. And so for Mike, it was an element to stretch his faith. For me, I wanted to cower up in the fetal position under the lunch table. And I recognize at that moment, I'm like, I'm not battle tested and ready for opposition. So I kind of went on a journey of what does that look like.
SPEAKER_00Now, I think we need to touch on this point here because listen, a lot of people tuning into this, driven entrepreneurs, see an objective, see a wall, want to plow through it. How do you know when this is a spiritual battle? This is a test, you need to rise up in faith and work through it. Or you've stepped out of the will and the plans that God has had for you. How do you how can you discern the difference?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, this is vital, and I wouldn't say I've mastered this, but I've put some principles together that I think help me feel like I've I'm I've arrived at the right decision. I think the first is the the common question I find myself asking the Lord in my quiet space, and I would just say that to me is the number one. If you don't have this secret place, quiet place that you're beginning to cultivate, if you're a person of faith, it's going to be really hard to hear in the emotionally driven big decisions. Like I'm trying to start to recognize and hear his voice in the small stuff. Like my first time practicing hearing God, and I really shouldn't be asking, should I sell this business? Should I quit? Should I go to this college? Should I marry this person? Like that is huge, weighty, monumental decisions. I want to start with, hey, should I go to lunch today at Chick-fil-A or this place, right? And that seems like, what, really? But if he's ordering our steps and if I I'm like, I'm detached, I don't care where I go to lunch. That's a great time to hear because I'm actually have clear receptors because it's not clouded with all these other things. So I would say start simple before you get very major, but you need this secret place where you shut off distractions, right?
SPEAKER_00There are so many people that over the years I've heard say, I don't want to bother God with something that small and insignificant, let alone ask him for anything. So what would you say to someone who's in this place like, he's running the world right now? I am insignificant. I'm not gonna ask him for a parking spot or which restaurant or which toothpaste to purchase.
SPEAKER_01I couldn't imagine if one of my kids are nine, six, and three. I couldn't imagine one of my kids running up to me and asking me for something at this age as a child, my child, and looking at them saying, like, come on, I can't believe you're asking me that. I'm way too busy over here mowing the lawn or working on these big deals. My kids are asking me for silly things, but because of my love for them, my connection, my desire to be close to them, I'm willing to turn aside from the things I'm doing and engage, even if it's a silly thing, even if it's something that to me seems minuscule. I'm like, wow, this is a really big deal for you. You lost your stuffy, you know what I mean? And I'm like, I'm willing to go on a hunt for this stuffy with you because I care about you. I don't really care about the stuffy. It's because of this relationship. And I would just say, if he knows the number of hairs on your head, he already knows, anyways. Like, he's already, he's already intimately acquainted with stuff I don't care about. I don't care how many hairs I have. He already knows that much intimacy about me. Whoa. Okay, that feels different than a busy person up there who's like an executive that doesn't want to spend time with me.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for answering that. So quiet space is what you said. We really want a space where we can actually start to hear his voice because, in my estimation, it's like learning a new language, right? You might pick up a couple words in the beginning, it might feel awkward, right? But over time, you start to cultivate this listening relationship. And so I know for me, like one of the practices that I was taught was to journal and ask God a question and write G and just see what comes to mind. And I'll look back at that journal and say, for 50% minimum, that's in a best case scenario. That was complete hogwash. That was not the Lord. But here I am seeking him and saying, Is that you, God? Trying to discern. And there's been some pivotal things, like instrumental things that I've felt or sensed in prayer. They're not audible booming voices for me. You shared a really cool study with me one time that changed the way I think listening, prayer, hearing God speak. Some people of the faith think all of that is for the birds, others lean into it heavily. What does it mean to hear God's voice?
SPEAKER_01Oh, what a good question. I love this. The scripture, when we talk about that secret place, it's a place where you two are getting alone and shutting off distractions. What I love about that verse, it's in the Gospel of Matthew. He says, When you pray, go to your most secret place and shut the door. To shut the door means shut off distractions. Put your phone on airplane mode, walk, take a walk, get away from your computer. That to me is what shut the door means. Cut the distractions out. Then it says, Your father who sees you in secret will reward you openly. Well, if he already sees you in the secret place, that means the promise is he's already there. So when I show up to this place, the first thing I have to recognize is he's here with me. He was actually already here waiting for me. And so when I show up, that alone makes it feel like I'm on holy ground. I'm in this special place that he promised if I will shut it down and turn aside, he's already here waiting for me to meet me. And then when I get to that place, I realize I'm not here because I need to get anything. I'm actually here for connection. When I sit down with my wife and we finally get a date night and someone sits with the sitters, can you imagine if we sat down at some romantic place across and all I did was just start wanting, I just I need this, I need this from you, I need this from you, right? It would be so weird if you did that. And you're like, no, this is a special moment. I'm like, hey, how are you? You look so amazing. I'm so glad to be here with you. That seems so weird, but it's like when you sit with God, what's it like? He already knows your needs. I'm not saying don't pray for your needs, but I'm saying I show up sometimes and say, hey, I'm here just because I want to spend time with you. It's okay if I hear a little, I hear a lot, but I just know you're here with me, and that's friendship being formed. That's a relationship being formed. And so when it starts there without this weird, heavy expectation and agenda, it goes a lot better.
SPEAKER_00What a great analogy. You had told me about a study that was done on hearing God's voice, and it was a game changer for me. Tell me what the summary of this study was.
SPEAKER_01I listened to this gentleman who basically sent out for a year to research and analyze any and everyone he could find that had said they felt like they heard God speak to them. And so he tried to distill it down to be like, what are the commonalities between all these people who say they hear God? And the first thing is that the promise is my sheep will hear and recognize my voice. So the first thing is they believed that he actually speaks. And a thousand percent cold. Does he speak through the written word of God? Yes, it promises it's alive and active and it's powerful. The breath of life is on that. It's the only book you'll ever read that the author is always present with you every time you read it. That's a pretty cool feeling. When I open my Bible, I'm like, wow, you're here with me. We're reading this together, you know? So, first off, is they actually believed. Because if you don't believe he's gonna talk to you, why would you sit around listening? You wouldn't. You would just carry on with your day. But the next thing, and this was eye-opening for me, they all described it as spontaneous thoughts. So what they felt was when he looked at all these people who said they heard from something, that it almost felt like this thought that came very gently, sounded like themselves, sounded like their own voice, their own voice, and they could either lean in and turn aside and lean into this thought, or it would kind of just quietly pass. And that was a spontaneous thought. That's what the voice of God sounds like. And then I realized, well, he lives inside of me. It would be creepy if there was a third-party Morgan Freeman voice in me talking. They would want to lock me up if I said that. So Jesus says, I pray that we would become one just as the Father and I are one. So there's this oneness where his spirit is in my spirit, and I'm thinking and writing off a lot of the voice of God as my own thoughts. So you have this thought while you're at the grocery store. Man, it's been a while since I reached out to Aunt Shirley. I should really send her a message. Thirty seconds ago, you were just thinking about the grocery list and the fact that you don't want to cook spaghetti dinner tonight. Why all of a sudden, after you're just randomly thinking of Aunt Shirley? That spontaneous thought is that moment where you could lean in. Wow, is that you, Lord? What are you saying to me, right? Or you could carry on with your busy day.
SPEAKER_00What a great filter. Like just as a first round here, it's is that you got, well, my thoughts and how the brain is wired, as we know, is like one thought leads to another. They're sequential, right? One goes to the next. And so when there's this interruption in flow and it's this obscure idea, sometimes even a word that I don't use in my vocabulary will pop into my mind. And to grab hold of that and say, wait a second, where did that come from? Right? Great first round filter to say, is that you or is that me? God, was I even thinking in that direction?
SPEAKER_01Totally. When someone asks me to verify it, my first question is, do you normally talk to yourself like that? Or like, oh no, I would I've never I never speak to myself and inside my head like this. I'm like, huh, that's interesting. You have you're asking me to fact check a thought that you would normally not think, and you don't even talk to yourself that way. Interesting. File that away. I think of Moses when he sees this burning bush, the bush doesn't speak until it says he turned aside, and then God spoke. So there was this moment where he could have actually kept walking past the bush. But instead he turned aside, and meaning he leaned in, he gave it the attention it was due, and then God speaks to him. I think about that with this spontaneous thought. I could lean in or I could say, Oh, I'm late, I gotta keep moving, and just keep barreling through my day.
SPEAKER_00So you left us on a bit of a cliffhanger here. So bring us back to the extension.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So the question I always ask myself, is this opposition a spiritual thing, or is this me supposed to be tapping out? I usually ask God this question: is this a stand firm and resist moment, or is this a be still and know that I'm God moment? Because my heart posture is very different. If I'm going to battle or I'm gonna be resting. This is a stand firm resist moment, okay? So that moment catapulted me to realize opposition could actually be fuel, right? So the opposition was caused me to close the business, lose out on this opportunity, and feel like a failure. Instead, because we pressed in faith, uh, I end up getting a new attorney. The whole thing gets ended up getting thrown out. In fact, the attorney, fortunately for him, the guy who had the nervous breakdown had to pay everyone's attorney's fees, and we all walked away. That's where it ended. So I felt bad for him, but not really, because it was far less than $250,000. But what came out of that, this is the craziest part, the word Kalos, all right, I never knew that there were actual Bible verses with the name. I just looked up a Greek name that had a meaning that I liked. So one time Kalos shows up in the Bible, it's in Galatians 6, it says, Do not grow weary in doing kalos. In due season, you'll reap a harvest if you faint not. So this became my kind of life verse and my business verse. Don't grow weary in doing good, doing excellent. Don't grow weary in being noble on the inside. And in due season, you will reap the harvest if you don't faint and quit. And so that became my resilience to recognize that opposition is to me fuel to the fire to be able to actually try to press through.
SPEAKER_00The lawsuit gets washed away, the lawyers' fees get washed away. But yet the sentiment on the inside doesn't quite get washed away immediately, does it?
SPEAKER_01No, to be honest, it felt like a giant relief, and then I just be like, all right, now it's time to build a business. And there would be these times, like I'm talking about and describing this secret place, there would be times, and listen, I was again, we did not make a lot of money year one, and so the only hobby that didn't cost any money was disc golf or frisbee golf. I couldn't afford real golf, so I'd be out with my dog throwing discs, just talking with God about my business. And there would be often times where I would get this picture and image of my old boss, and I could feel the RPM start to ramp up internally. And there'd be times it'd be like, God, I already forgave this guy. Why do you keep bringing this up? And you people might have a different chain of thought on this, but my thought is this: when he's shining a light on something, it actually is because he wants to make you whole and set you free in an area. So most people, if something bubbles up to the surface, they start getting anxious about it or they want to avoid it or they want to shelf it. I look at that, and this has taken time to get to this point, but I'm like, oh, you're shining your light on this? You said it's for freedom that Christ has set us free. Don't get entangled in the yoke of bondage. I don't want to be bound up on anything. And so when he shined his light on this, I started to walk through this area of what does it look like to really forgive somebody and not hold offense, even though they royally tried to screw me, even though they I felt like I was really mishandled and my character was attacked, etc. And so that set me on a journey of how do you walk free from offense? How do you walk in such a way that other people can't control you and control how you react and respond to things?
SPEAKER_00Now, in it's gotta be confusing because we're not talking about a small season here. You served him faithfully for 10 years. He taught you what you knew, you added to it, you built this wonderful business with him and some of the others, and only for it to end in an accusation. Quite unfair.
SPEAKER_01In case you don't have this experience yet, you will. Somebody somewhere at some point is going to misrepresent you, they're gonna make accusation, they're gonna slander you. It's bound to happen if you're in the business world. Unfortunately, if you're in the ministry and the Christendom world, it happens. To me, there's only two ways to go. I'm either going to take that and I'm gonna let that seed begin to germinate in my heart, which starts to create resentment, offense. I start to view other people in deals. I'll sidetrack this for a moment. I have a client in the Northeast, and every time I present a candidate to them, they go, Oh, this reminds us of Larry. Do you remember how Larry did this and this? Oh, we can't interview this guy. I go, what? When did Larry work here? Seven years ago. He left in 2009. I'm like, wait a minute. A guy from nine years ago, he, your experience with him reminds you and triggers this resume. And so you're not gonna talk to this person. And so what has happened is they've put a lens on how they view because they haven't dealt with these other things. So if you start to look at places in your life where you're holding bitterness or offense or judgment, how do you feel if you were to be honest with yourself? There could be a similar trigger or a similar scenario. Do you think you're gonna look at that with a clear vantage point, or do you think you're looking with a skewed view on it? And so I just realized like I'm walking into situations and people expecting the same outcome I've got before. And I'm giving these people an unfair shake because of my experience with my old boss. And that was the journey.
SPEAKER_00So it sounds like there was difficulty trusting new relationships. You're just almost when things are going well, you're expecting them to come down, being falsely accused of something. And so this is working away at you. How does it all get resolved?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the reality is you have to be okay with recognizing that you the only thing you can control is you. You're never going to be able to control other people. And I mean, people spend their entire lives trying to control their kids, their spouse, their staff, and we could go on and on. It's all an illusion. You're never going to be able to control somebody else. You could might get them to modify their behavior around you, but that's not actually genuinely control. And so the first thing is you have to let this illusion of control go. And I can't control the situation, I can't control the people, and then you realize, yeah, I'm really out of control in about every area of my life. Okay, that's actually a good place to be. Okay, put the facade down. You're not controlling anything. And the second thing is to realize that the only way for me to move forward is that I have to be okay with releasing somebody. Doesn't give them a free pass, doesn't justify their actions or what they did. But you've maybe have heard the saying holding on to unforgiveness is like drinking rat poison and expecting the other person to die. That's what happens. You're the one getting sick when you hold on to bitterness and resentment and unforgiveness. And I think I'm doing that as well. I'll show him, I'll never let this go. Oh, who's they don't even think about it, they've moved on, and here you are, still bound to this thing and this event or that misuse of you, and it's starting to permeate and affect other areas of your life.
SPEAKER_00So that's for the obvious unforgiveness bitterness when the person's mind comes up. People will say things like, I forgave them, but I won't forget them. And just the tone alone tells us, brother, you got some work to do on that forgiveness. But tell us about the less obvious. Because I think there's a lot of places where people could be in the same vicinity in the same church, and it yet there's a no-fly zone. How do I know when there's still a root of unforgiveness that's in me?
SPEAKER_01I actually got to the point where I had to picture if I walked by this person and I saw them in the hallway at some conference, what would that invoke in me? And if I could visualize it in my head and actually start to feel my heart's racing already, just the thought of walking past them, I would know there's still some work to do there. If I don't feel like I can, in good conscience, say I release you and I bless you in whatever you're doing, I know that there's something still there.
SPEAKER_00What you said there was really interesting, bless you. But it's like this idea of even being generous towards that individual. That's one of my filters. Could I give to them with a whole heart? Or do I care for their well-being? Am I excited for something that could be coming in their future? Am I maybe I don't want to hang out with them because of whatever's happened, but what's my heart towards them? So you brought up some good points there.
SPEAKER_01It's real good. If you saw them get some award or promotion online, would you have a chip in it? I can't believe they gave them that thing, right? Like that already, you know, okay, still some work to do. Yeah, there's still something there. I like that though. I like to realize that the more I let go, the more free and light I actually feel. I'm doing this for me. I'm not doing it for them or anybody else, other than I feel better when I walk this way. And I always ask myself, how would a dead person respond if they if you offended them? And the answer is they wouldn't respond, they're dead, right? If I'm trying to die to that and that old nature and that old way of thinking, how would I respond if I were truly dead? I wouldn't respond. I'd be able to keep walking in character and integrity and not let them have power and control over me.
SPEAKER_00I know we're coming up on time. I would love to know just conclusively, like, what did the full freedom look like for you? How did you get unlocked? Where did the healing come?
SPEAKER_01I imagine it wasn't a one-off event, but I I try to surround myself with other mentors and people who've gone before me. None of us are that good to do this life alone, to do business alone. You need trusted allies in your corner. And so there are people I've invited into my life to give me permission. Hey, if I start colouring outside the lines, you have the freedom and ability to ask me tough questions. I want you to push on me in the area of finances, in the area of how am I holding the line of integrity? Ask me. That's okay. And so the fact that I've given people access to me in that degree, now it's not everybody, that's not the public, but there's two or three people I've picked that meet with me monthly that are able to ask, hey, how's your marriage? How are things in your business? Hey, times are tough, the economy's weird, how are you feeling about the way you're viewing? That has helped me come back to center a lot of times. Uh, and so that's key. I would say get some allies in your corner for whatever you're facing. And the other thing is, this is the deeper stuff. Why am I doing this? I always say start with the why. If I don't know what I'm saying yes to, a yes is going to be always be more powerful than no. So I'm saying yes to freedom. I'm saying yes to being a marathon runner. I don't want to do short sprints and then feel like I'm burning out, I'm disgruntled, I can't go for the full marathon. And this is part of this journey for me, is to be a marathon runner. I want to be thriving two, three decades from now.
SPEAKER_00That's so good. Brandon, if there was one piece of advice that you would give to your former self, say you encountered him in a hallway and you grabbed him by the shoulders, looked him in the eyes, what would you say?
SPEAKER_01I would say to recognize that you're part of a much bigger story than your little sphere. And you're actually not the main character in the story. And so when everything revolves around you or you feel that it rises and falls on you, the amount of false pressure we put on ourselves could be crippling. And so when I recognize I'm just a character in a much larger story, and I could recognize what I what my why and what I'm saying yes to. Why am I building this business? Why am I staying faithful to this? Why am I pushing as hard as I am? When I can am willing to ask myself those questions and have self-awareness, I would have looked at my little self and said the best thing you could do is be self-aware to your internal world if you want to run this thing for the long haul.
SPEAKER_00Mr. Brandon Hayes, this has been full of gold. Thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom, your life experience, and even yeah, a wild trial that turned into this great and beautiful outcome named Kalos. So keep up the great work in the marketplace. I love the witness that you hold.
SPEAKER_01Great to be with you, Cole.